Bagger engine build

[dolt]

Dolt, I have a couple of questions. Why the 585 instead of the 551? If I am reading the S&S literature correctly, they are recommending the 551 cam for my application. Second, specifically what are you recommending I use when you say to "Upgrade the inner cam bearings, cam chain tensioners, oil pump"? Also, what kind of mileage should I expect from this combination? Thanks for your input.

The 106" kit includes flat top pistons but I don't know the dome volume. I have assumed it to be -3cc but not sure. The 551 intake closes at 19* ABDC, which will generate corrected compression and CCP way to high; like 10.4 corrected compression and near 220psi CCP. If I were you, I would check with S&S to verify the piston dome volume and calculate corrected compression and CCP; try to keep corrected compression in the 9.3-9.4 range and CCP in the 185-190psi range. Assuming the same -3cc dome volume would set corrected compression at 9.4 and CCP at 195psi (sea level). Of course that is based on 85cc chambers which is pretty standard for OEM heads. So, that's the reason I like the 585 more than the 551 and I like the additional lift. Check with S&S for the dome volume, do the math.

The OEM inner cam bearings are INA bearings and you should replace them with a full compliment roller like Torrington B168s or the SE bearing. At 125K miles, the tensioner shoes and oil pump should be replaced. They may still be with the service limits but why invest the money in a new build and not start out with new tensioners shoes and oil pump? As for an upgrade, Zippers make a dual piston tensioner that is supposed to be an upgrade; haven't installed any so I can't speak from personal experience but I hear they are better. As for the oil pump, a new OEM pump will get the job done but if you have an extra $450 laying around, the Dan Thayer 3 stage pump is the bomb but not necessary for your project.

Mileage will depend on how you use the throttle, could be anywhere from 36 to 44. It all depends on how much self control you have.:naughty

As usual, JMHO.

 

[Jennmarr]

Dolt, I would probably be closer to the 36mpg end of your scale. I have a hard time resisting the urge to twist the wrist. I am still a little confused about your cam recommendation though. You said the CCP is too high with the 551 cam set. Too high causing detonation problems, or too high for the stock starter? Or some other reason? I thought that, in general, higher cylinder pressure equaled more power?

 

[dolt]

Dolt, I would probably be closer to the 36mpg end of your scale. I have a hard time resisting the urge to twist the wrist. I am still a little confused about your cam recommendation though. You said the CCP is too high with the 551 cam set. Too high causing detonation problems, or too high for the stock starter? Or some other reason? I thought that, in general, higher cylinder pressure equaled more power?

Higher than stock cylinder pressures do generate more power, i.e., torque. However, for a longevity, rideability and dependability, keeping corrected compression around 9.3-9.4 and CCP between 185-190psi is the way to go.

Read my post again. My comment about the CCP being too high for the 551 cam set is based on the assumption that the dome volume of the kit piston is -3cc. Verify the dome volume and we can get down with the numbers and take a closer look. The difference in an intake close event of 19* to 45* is huge, so regardless of piston dome volume, there will be a signicicant difference in CR and CCP between those two cams.

High cylinder pressures, i.e., CR and CCP will generally make the motor more difficult to tune, detonation will be an issue, compression releases will be mandatory to extend battery and starter life and, often times, there will be rideability issues. There is just no reason to go there with a street build.

 

[Jennmarr]

Dolt, I took a quick look at the S&S website, but could not find any specifics about the pistons in the 106" kit other than that they are forged. The items pictured appear to be flat tops with valve pockets only, but it's only a picture. However, I looked at the cam recommendations again and the 551 is specifically recommended for use in heavy touring bikes. The 585 is billed as a "horsepower" cam and is recommended for use in lighter machines. I guess I will have to contact S&S and ask for specifics about those pistons. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Hoople]

It will be close to 125k ... The engine has never been opened up

That is pretty impressive. If you don't mind me asking,,,What brand & weight of oil did you use. Please don't tell me Mobile 1 because I will force myself not to believe it.

 

[glazier]

That is pretty impressive. If you don't mind me asking,,,What brand & weight of oil did you use. Please don't tell me Mobile 1 because I will force myself not to believe it.

Uh oh..... what's wrong with Mobil 1??? Thats what I've been using and was under the impression its right up there with the best. Have I been misinformed??? (again)

 

[Jennmarr]

That is pretty impressive. If you don't mind me asking,,,What brand & weight of oil did you use. Please don't tell me Mobile 1 because I will force myself not to believe it.

First 4,800 I don't know. That is what was on it when I bought it as a salvage bike in December of '07. From 4,800 to about 80k it was Syn3 20-50. After that, Amsoil 20-50

 

[Jack Klarich]

Dolt, I took a quick look at the S&S website, but could not find any specifics about the pistons in the 106" kit other than that they are forged. The items pictured appear to be flat tops with valve pockets only, but it's only a picture. However, I looked at the cam recommendations again and the 551 is specifically recommended for use in heavy touring bikes. The 585 is billed as a "horsepower" cam and is recommended for use in lighter machines. I guess I will have to contact S&S and ask for specifics about those pistons. Thanks again for your input.

Do contact S&S for tech support, their forged pistons are top notch IMO, used their sidewinder kits in years past with good results American made:s

 

[dolt]

Dolt, I took a quick look at the S&S website, but could not find any specifics about the pistons in the 106" kit other than that they are forged. The items pictured appear to be flat tops with valve pockets only, but it's only a picture. However, I looked at the cam recommendations again and the 551 is specifically recommended for use in heavy touring bikes. The 585 is billed as a "horsepower" cam and is recommended for use in lighter machines. I guess I will have to contact S&S and ask for specifics about those pistons. Thanks again for your input.

Is this the recommedation you make reference to?

551: Designed for engines with 96 to 106 CID and 9:1 to 9:9 compression this is a bolt-in cam set designed for stock or mildly modified touring bikes. 551 cams are not recommended for compression ratios of 10:1 or greater. Greatly improves low-end and midrange torque, strongest from idle-4000rpm.

I am certainly not one to take exception to S&S recommendations but this doesn't appear to be a recommendation to use the 551 cam set with the S&S 106 kit??

The only way I would install any cam would be based on knowing the resulting corrected CR and CCP. As I have pointed out, my targets for street builds are 9.3-9.6 corrected and 185-190psi for CCP (corrected for elevation). Achieving those targets would require doing the math based on bore, stroke, deck height, head gasket thickness, chamber and piston dome volume and intake close timing.

I repeat, assuming that the dome volume of the kit piston is -3cc, or even -6cc, static compression is right at or just over 10:1; a no go for the 551 according to the S&S recommendation. So, call S&S for the piston dome volume, do the math and if the math supports using the 551, by all means use it.

I am not trying to talk you out of the 551s and not disputing S&S recommendations; I just pointing out the potential pitfalls of blindly following any recommendation without doing the homework.

The 585 is referred to as a HP cam but don't think that, set up with the right compression, that it does not deliver plenty of TQ.

BTW, there are Andrews and TMan cams that will work as well.

 

[Jennmarr]

Is this the recommedation you make reference to?

551: Designed for engines with 96 to 106 CID and 9:1 to 9:9 compression this is a bolt-in cam set designed for stock or mildly modified touring bikes. 551 cams are not recommended for compression ratios of 10:1 or greater. Greatly improves low-end and midrange torque, strongest from idle-4000rpm.

I am certainly not one to take exception to S&S recommendations but this doesn't appear to be a recommendation to use the 551 cam set with the S&S 106 kit??

The only way I would install any cam would be based on knowing the resulting corrected CR and CCP. As I have pointed out, my targets for street builds are 9.3-9.6 corrected and 185-190psi for CCP (corrected for elevation). Achieving those targets would require doing the math based on bore, stroke, deck height, head gasket thickness, chamber and piston dome volume and intake close timing.

I repeat, assuming that the dome volume of the kit piston is -3cc, or even -6cc, static compression is right at or just over 10:1; a no go for the 551 according to the S&S recommendation. So, call S&S for the piston dome volume, do the math and if the math supports using the 551, by all means use it.

I am not trying to talk you out of the 551s and not disputing S&S recommendations; I just pointing out the potential pitfalls of blindly following any recommendation without doing the homework.

The 585 is referred to as a HP cam but don't think that, set up with the right compression, that it does not deliver plenty of TQ.

BTW, there are Andrews and TMan cams that will work as well.

Dolt, that was not the recommendation I was referring to. In fact I did not see the note you quoted. What I had seen was included in the information that accompanied the 106" kit. I will try to look it up again when i get home tonight. One other caveat that may impact this discussion is that the note referred to the 551 EZ Start cam. I am certainly not married to any particular setup at this point and I am not trying to argue with you. I just want to understand where you were coming from and why you were making the recommendation that you did. I had an Andrews cam in my last bike ('86 FLHTC). 80" Evo that I was very happy with. I certainly do not want to create any driveability issues for myself.

On a related note, I saw on another thread that you recommended a couple of other shops for head work. Just wondered if you knew of one in north central Indiana? I am not opposed to shipping the heads to Maine, but if there is a local shop capable of doing the work, I would prefer to stay local. Thanks again for the input.