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S & S 106 or SE 103 big bore upgrade kit?

Thanks. Looking forward to hearing about it!

Well,the deed's SORTA done!Unable to catch up with "standard" boy,i had over 20 runs against the Fatboy fitted with 583 Easy Start cams.If you've seen the Dyno charts for these on 'S&S's website,you'd see how very similiar they are;except the 551's have a dip about 3000rpm and start to rise again somewhere about 3300rpm.Whereas the 583's stay pretty constant from 2400 through to maybe 4500 rpm.

You'd also recall how that pesky brother would not shut up extolling the virtues of 583 cams.Well,he has now!I'm almost speechless.

We ran the bikes against each other from 3rd,4th,5th and 6th gears.We changed bikes and repeated same speeds against same rpm's.The bikes ran consistently equal.Every time.Same outcome when i rode his bike and he mine.The FLSTF would pull my FLSTN SLIGHTLY at around 3300 rpm(the torque dip);but when i rode his bike and being 10 or so kgs heavier,the bikes stayed even until mine hit my self imposed rev limiter of 4256 rpm.

So this time,i'm the one doing the talking.Fantastic improvement over stock,fantastic improvement in rideability.I stand by what i said before;i reckon this thing in 4th gear will pull the standard FLSTF in 3rd gear.

With this cam kit,you get superior low down and mid range torque,less mechanical effort with starting AND Torrington bearings to replace the stock H-D ones.To me,it seems like a win-win upgrade.I could have easily fitted the 583 cams and been ecstatic like my brother,but the 551's do the same job,only they start earlier and finish earlier.As a rider who (until today)has never ventured over 3500 rpm,they suit me perfectly.Highly recommended.Either set.

When i catch up with 'Bimbo'-standard boy-and shut him down,i'll post those results.
 
Well,the deed's SORTA done!Unable to catch up with "standard" boy,i had over 20 runs against the Fatboy fitted with 583 Easy Start cams.If you've seen the Dyno charts for these on 'S&S's website,you'd see how very similiar they are;except the 551's have a dip about 3000rpm and start to rise again somewhere about 3300rpm.Whereas the 583's stay pretty constant from 2400 through to maybe 4500 rpm.

You'd also recall how that pesky brother would not shut up extolling the virtues of 583 cams.Well,he has now!I'm almost speechless.

We ran the bikes against each other from 3rd,4th,5th and 6th gears.We changed bikes and repeated same speeds against same rpm's.The bikes ran consistently equal.

With this cam kit,you get superior low down and mid range torque,less mechanical effort with starting AND Torrington bearings to replace the stock H-D ones.To me,it seems like a win-win upgrade.I could have easily fitted the 583 cams and been ecstatic like my brother,but the 551's do the same job,only they start earlier and finish earlier.

As a rider who (until today)has never ventured over 3500 rpm,they suit me perfectly.Highly recommended.Either set..

Thank you very much for the feedback. I expect to pick up my 2008 Road King Classic with the S & S 106 big bore upgrade with EZ start 551 cams this afternoon. Will post my own review after I break it in. Your results make me comfortable with the choice.
 
Glad to hear the new cams are working good for you guys....

You might want to take a look at a good method of breaking in the rings...

Many here have done it this way and it does a Quick Great Job.. Breaking in the Rings on both Sides of compression...

30/60/30 X10 = Done.

p://www.hdtimeline.com/harley_davidson_engine_related_issues/953-engine_break_in_for_new_motors.html

signed....BUBBIE

glider
Wise Member
Ride: N/A

Join Date: Jun 21st, 2007
Posts: 24,105

re: Engine Break In For New Motors
It's never too late in a young bike like yours to get it out and do the break in process as described. You can even do it on the way to the road you had plans to use if you are careful. The object is to load the rings on accel and decel both to seat them.
 
You might want to take a look at a good method of breaking in the rings...

Many here have done it this way and it does a Quick Great Job.. Breaking in the Rings on both Sides of compression...

30/60/30 X10 = Done.

p://www.hdtimeline.com/harley_davidson_engine_related_issues/953-engine_break_in_for_new_motors.html

Great information. Thank you. Read through the links carefully and will give this a try: 30 to 60 to 30 X 10, change the oil at 100 miles and then ride normally (no lugging and don't stay at one speed too long) to oil change at 500mi
 
Results

Got the bike (2008 Road King Classic with 43600 miles on it) on a Wednesday afternoon. About 80 degrees and clear; nice afternoon for a ride. Had the TMAX with autotune for TWB, D & D Fat Cats 2 into 1 (black, louvered), the S & S 106 big bore kit with EZ start 551 cams, and a VPC installed. Here are my impressions after a first ride:

Took it for a 80 mile shakedown ride. First of all, the bike sounds great and pulls with significantly more power, which is very pleasing. No need to change gearing; it seems like a shift from 5th to 6th at about 55 mph is what the bike wants now where before it felt wrong in either of those gears from 55 to 65 or so. The lower gears also don't feel as high as they did before, for some reason -- all good. In addition, I feel a lot of power in 6th at 55 and up, where previously, it felt weak there. Generally, the increased power right where I ride is super; the bike just feels like a much lighter bike as it seems to accelerate and sprint where before it kind of loped along. So that is good - and just the gain I was hoping for. I stopped, turned it off, and let it sit for a minute or two and restarted it several times at various points along this 80 mile jaunt, and got good starts each time. There was some "rrrr, rrrr, rrrr" a couple of times, so I felt there was more strain on the starter and battery than I thought there would be with the EZ start cam, but it turned over pretty easily each time.....The clutch feels great. If anything, it seems to take less effort to pull it in, and I had no problems shifting at any level, so another positive.

Two discrepancies in need of correction, perhaps at the 500 mile oil change (which will be Monday or Tuesday). First, the "Miles to Empty" function on the odometer has disappeared. I have read that this is not uncommon with the TMAX install and that TMAX has a software correction for this. I hope so, because I like that function and would be sad to lose it. Second, the tune (I think, and hope it is the tune) needs a lot of correction. I know that this may correct itself as the autotune teaches itself, so this may be less of an issue -- or a non-issue -- in 500 miles. During this first 80 miles, however, there was a fair amount of popping on decleration, and, much more troubling, a very rough ride - at times - in 1st, 2nd and 3rd at low to moderate rpms and speeds. The bike felt like it was missing, or had a timing problem, as it would stumble, lurch and surge...Especially going slow in 1st, in traffic, the engine was just making the bike lurch, and I had to pull the clutch in and re-engage. Never felt anything like that before.

As I ride and it tunes itself, I'll see if this problem corrects itself.

Next:

On the tuning issue, the builder tells me:

"On the driveability issue, I chose a 110" base map and it seemed pretty close. More riding and automapping prior to giving the bike back probably would have benefitted the state of tune but I am confident that the Thundermax will continue to tune in. Depending on how far it needs to tune from the base map, it may need a couple more automapping sessions."

So I will ride some more, automap again, and let you all know.

On the "Miles to Empty function," he says this is an east fix. Lots of rain here in the Virginia and Maryland coast tonight and tomorrow, but weather looks fair through the weekend, so expect to have another 500 miles logged by Monday, and will report further.

Next:

As I reported previously the bike did not run well on the initial shakedown ride. When I started it the next morning, it backfired badly, and barely turned over. After a very hard start, it ran very ragged. Stumbling, hesitating, seeming to miss. Limped straight in to the shop - about 3 miles.

After some diagnosis the builder observed that the autotune was richening the front cylinder but not doing the same thing to the back. This led him to deduce that the intake seal was compromised. He figured the front cylinder was getting too much air, and the autotune was in response, richening the mix to that cylinder. In other words, the autotune was faithfully de tuning the bike as it reacted to an input from a compromised component.

He took it out, and the seal was indeed torn. He replaced that and, at first, the bike's problems appeared solved. Wish it were so.

The bike was running well when the technician finished with it. It ran pretty well for about an hour as I rode south from the shop to La Plata, Maryland, via 301 (Crane Highway) -- 30 or 40 miles at various speeds. I stopped there for lunch, and it started OK (I am not satisfied with the so called easy start cams, by the way, the starts seem very hard)...but as I pulled out of the parking lot, the engine hesitated at slow speed. But once I got going again it seemed to smooth out (I figured the autotune was doing its job). It ran well for the next few hours as I traveled south on 301 to 17 and took 17 toward Yorktown, Virginia. Again, not faster than 65 or 70, and rarely running at the same speed for more than 20 or 30 minutes, if that long. Stopped near Yorktown for gas; this was about 120 miles from the first stop in La Plata. Bike started OK (not instantly, but with a little turnover -- again, this is not making me a fan of the EZ start - they haven't been working as S & S claims), and ran fine until I got into some traffic after about 40 miles. Started to run ragged in slow traffic; but intermittent. Got home, turned the bike off. About 40 minutes later, went out to run an errand. Lot of trouble starting it, and back to the way it was when I brought it in that morning. Just awful. Rode about 2 miles, came home. An hour later started it again and rode about 5 miles (not faster than 45). No improvement. Stopped it and let it sit for 3 hours and went to start it again, and it barely started. Lots of rrr rrr rrr and no ignition. Finally turned over after I gave it some throttle and limped home the 5 mile return trip with the same sniffing, hiccupping, missing, hesitation, stumbling, etc I have been reporting.

Conclusions:

The auto tune is detuning the bike, probably as before reacting to an input that is from an improperly functioning component. Perhaps the intake seal is again compromised.

The EZ start cams are not easy starting. (Could their malfunction be causing the high compression to be blowing the seal after a few starts?)

Here are my thoughts at this point:

I am very concerned, in addition to the serious tune issues, with the starting. The strain is not what S & S claims will happen with the EZ start, or shows in their video on their web site. I really don't think they are working right, and it's killing the battery and starter. I wouldn't want to run it this way for any length of time; and if it doesn't correct with the tune fix (assuming the cams aren't some how causing the problems that the autotune is reacting to), I would hope for some other solution. Maybe change them out and/or put in manual compression releases. Again, I do not think the EZ start cams are functioning as S & S claims and warrants so am not at all satisfied with that aspect of the build, in addition to the tune problems discussed. I doubt that they are linked, but have an open mind and will see what further tune diagnosis reveals.

I will remap the TMAX today and wipeout the tuning that is causing the stumbling, and hope to get it running well enough to ride it for the return trip. I have communicated all to the builder (a local indie shop); and he seems committed to getting it right.

Very frustrating. Seems to me a relatively simple bolt in build shouldn't develop like this.

More to follow
 
Re: Results

Wow,what a handful.Hope you get it sorted without huge headaches.
Couple of questions if i may:
What map did you put in?Iknow there's no SPECIFIC 106"map,but Zippers say on page 37 of the Smartlink Manual that a correct match to engine STROKE is way more important than matching engine displacement.IF the 110"motor (the map you put in)has the same stroke(4.375") as the 106"motor then well and good.If not,then maybe you could put in a new map.Do you still have the original throttle body fitted?Again If so,i reckon you can work backwards throught the mapfiles and in conjunction with the exhaust options,come up with maps 378,528,548 or 553.Check them out and see what differences there are compared to your map;they're 103" and 110" maps.With my cams and my map(548),i've noticed my bike runs good;but too rich.I'm planning to go through the AFR'S from 768 to 4096 rpm and lean it off a bit.Just a thought.

Secondly,if your Easy Start cams aren't working correctly,then your engine will just revert back to the full compression of your motor.I guess this could be an issue to upset you if the compression ratio of your big bore kit has been bumped up a bit.But they seem a pretty simple design and simple is often best and easiest in operation.

Thirdly,and forgive my stupidity:but what is a VPC?The closest thing i can think of is a PC V backwards.

Please keep us posted.
 
VPC = Variable Pressure Clutch

See, for example: AIM CorpVP Clutch Series


Variable Pressure Clutches Instruction Tech info
*Patent#US 7,516,825 B2
*Patent#US 7,428,955

40% more performance out of stock clutch!!
The VP clutch is the most cost effective kit to up grade your H-D stock clutch without any modefications. Up to 40% reduce clutch lever effort. Up to 40% more additional pressure to make a stronger clucth engagement. Available for all Harley-Davidson models.

Tech info
Stronger clutch engagement than stock
How to reduce clutch lever effort?
VP and spring combinations
Derby cover application

Features
Works like a lock up clutch.

Up to about 40% reduce clutch lever effort than stock.

Not only lighter, but stronger clutch engagement than stock when it revs up.

10 minutes installation (only '98 and later Big Twin models).

Better clutch disengagement and feel than stock, Easier to find neutral.

Fits behind a stock derby cover and primary cover. No modification required.

Note: Non-stock derby cover (including any special or '03 anniversary cover) and 3 holes derby cover may require a derby cover spacer. Clutch pull becomes heavier as RPM increases. Will fit models equipped with H-D hydraulic clutch.

Wow,what a handful.Hope you get it sorted without huge headaches.
Couple of questions if i may:

What map did you put in?

Do you still have the original throttle body fitted?

Please keep us posted.

Used the 110 map....stroke is the same in the 96 as in the 106. Only cylinder diameter changed. Will check on the 110 stroke. Thanks. Believe it is the same, but need to confirm

Still using the original throttle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Remapped this morning, wiping out the old map and reinserting the TMAX base map for a 110 with 2 into 1 and 255 cams (I am using EZ start 551s). Turned off the auto tune. Rode from VA Beach to the Annapolis area (about 230 miles). Rainy and cool.

Bike ran great from the get go, and continued to run well after the one fuel stop I made. Smooth, great power, super acceleration with easy roll on at pretty much any speed in any gear. No need to downshift. Gas mileage not great -- on the short side of 40 mpg. Started fine. Clutch is easy and smooth.

About 600 miles on the new build, at this point.

Now the builder has it to figure out why the auto tune is making the tune worse instead of better.

Will report as I learn more.
 
Troubleshooting S & S 106 big bore upgrade

Today we realized that the 02 eliminators used with the previously installed and removed Power Commander III were still installed on the bike along with the Thundermax module. Apparently this makes a difference; contact at Zippers agrees.

I don't know why or how this would be so since the stock ECU is out and replaced by the TMAX, which has its own broad band O2 sensors. Any thoughts?

But we have remapped and put it back into autotune; after 2 rides, it is running well. Will give it several more rides for autotune sessions and see whether this solves it.
 
Re: Troubleshooting S & S 106 big bore upgrade

It's good that you're making progress,and in the right direction too.
Soon as i saw your post on the VPC,i thought,IDIOT!Of course i know what a VPC is;a couple of years back i did the research about putting one on my bike and then apparently totally forgot anything i learned.Talk about a Homer Simpson moment!

Regarding your O2 sensor eliminators;i traced out the schematic of my bike and found the power wires for the O2 sensors went to the ECM-which of course has been removed.The Black return wires were joined up onto the 5v Sensor ground,:eek:r common wire.This is also the ground wire for Engine temp.sensor;Intake air sensor;Throttle position sensor and Map sensor.The above Sensors are powered via the new ECU.


What i'm wondering is that by shorting(bridging out) the two Sensor wires togethor,the old power wire is effectively going to ground.What is the former ECU end of the wire doing?It is still part of the 30 odd pin harness plug that plugs into the Thundermax.If it is plugged into a power source i would imagine BOTH new O2 sensors;along with Engine temp,Intake air sensor,T.P.S and Map sensor may not work properly.

How's that for a theory?
ps:How are the Easy Start cams going?
 
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