Cam Tensioners chewed up Oil Pump?

[Zelda The Welder]

So I have 90K miles, with a 96" bored, top end rebuild at 48K on my 2002 Twin Cam Ultra. Recently the noise in the bottom end became impossible to ignore. I talked with a friend who said, no big deal, cam tensioners probably gone, just have a mechanic put in new kit, and get back to riding. However, I could find only one guy willing to look at my "old bike". He agreed that it probably was just going to take putting in the new cam kit.
However, after removing the cover and looking, he lets me know that I probably need a new engine, and as long as the tranny is getting opened up, I should also get a six speed kit. This because there is quite a lot of debris in the oil and something took a chunk out of a sprocket in the oil pump. (See photos) He's guessing the debris has gotten up into the cylinders and valves, ruining them. The bike doesn't smoke, has normal oil pressure and normal throttle power.
Needless to say, a $4000 repair estimate jumped to a $12000 repair estimate. I don't want a new bike- this one has rode me around the US and Canada many, many times and is my bike. But, reality is that the frame is fatigued and I'm not sure we are going to tour again. Currently it is my daily rider to work. That all on top of not knowing this mechanic and the quality of his work.

 

[Frenchie]

This is another option, have your mechanic remove your cylinder heads he can inspect heads for debris and clean. Then have him remove cylinders keeping pistons in cylinders by removing piston wrist pins this way he can check for scoring on cylinder walls. Have him do connecting rod side play check. Then have him vacuum oil from crank case and check for debris. Replace inner cam bearings, cams, hydraulic lifters and install upgraded cam chest/oil pump that operates the tensioners with oil pressure rather than coiled spring as that original set up applied excessive tensioner pressure. I believe you will have to order the inner and outer chains separately. I would stay with the 5 speed, the transmission along with the primary have separate oils. This recommendation is based on findings.

 

[Zelda The Welder]

This is another option, have your mechanic remove your cylinder heads he can inspect heads for debris and clean. Then have him remove cylinders keeping pistons in cylinders by removing piston wrist pins this way he can check for scoring on cylinder walls. Have him do connecting rod side play check. Then have him vacuum oil from crank case and check for debris. Replace inner cam bearings, cams, hydraulic lifters and install upgraded cam chest/oil pump that operates the tensioners with oil pressure rather than coiled spring as that original set up applied excessive tensioner pressure. I believe you will have to order the inner and outer chains separately. I would stay with the 5 speed, the transmission along with the primary have separate oils. This recommendation is based on findings.

Frenchie, wow- big thanks for giving me your suggestions, I very much appreciate this! At my gut level, I knew there had to be another way! Cool thing, too- my husband agrees with you- and you explained what he couldn't. Awesome

 

[Frenchie]

No problem. Have mechanic send you in process photos and ultimately you will have to make call. Most of the failed parts should be in the cam chest area. Have mechanic flush lower cases with mineral spirits and flush the crank shaft passage he will see the mineral spirts flowing out at the lower connecting rod bearings then he can suction out the mineral spirts from the crank case and check for debris.

 

[dolt]

First, I would find another mechanic or get this guy to agree to follow your instructions.

Actually, it's not as bad as the OP might think. Drain the oil and look for debris, most was caught by the oil filter. Google Blackstone and request one of their sampler kits, collect oil and send it in for analysis before making a decision on how to proceed.

Depending on the analysis from Blackstone, the fix may be limited to replacing everything in the cam chest, i.e., cams, cam plate, oil pump, inner/outer cam bearings, tebsioners (CYCO), o-rings, etc.

Should the Blackstone analysis show that metal is floating in the oil, take the more aggressive steps as laid out by Frenchie. Certainly no need to replace the five speed. The '02 model year was the last year for the Timken left side crank bearing and hot forged cranks, so the '02 bottom end is near bullet proof.

 

[ThunderRogue]

So knowing the history of those tensioners, especially with that year, is that the original set? Have they ever been inspected or replaced? I make it a habit to change the oil and filter every 2500 miles and open the filter to inspect the media for signs of the tensioner pad particles.

 

[Zelda The Welder]

First, I would find another mechanic or get this guy to agree to follow your instructions.

Actually, it's not as bad as the OP might think. Drain the oil and look for debris, most was caught by the oil filter. Google Blackstone and request one of their sampler kits, collect oil and send it in for analysis before making a decision on how to proceed.

Depending on the analysis from Blackstone, the fix may be limited to replacing everything in the cam chest, i.e., cams, cam plate, oil pump, inner/outer cam bearings, tensioners (CYCO), o-rings, etc.

Should the Blackstone analysis show that metal is floating in the oil, take the more aggressive steps as laid out by Frenchie. Certainly no need to replace the five speed. The '02 model year was the last year for the Timken left side crank bearing and hot forged cranks, so the '02 bottom end is near bullet proof.

Thank you- I looked up the Blackstone Oil Test. It looks like a good deal. I very much appreciate the info!

So knowing the history of those tensioners, especially with that year, is that the original set? Have they ever been inspected or replaced? I make it a habit to change the oil and filter every 2500 miles and open the filter to inspect the media for signs of the tensioner pad particles.

As far as I know, this is the original set- I haven't found any receipts in my records that the dealer servicing my bike ever went in there. When they did the big bore (96") at 48K, they did nothing in the cams. I don't work on my own bike, always trusted the dealer, then when that ran out as an option, moved on to a long time friend. After that came to an end, I am now with a new (to me) shop that was recommended through the grapevine.

 

[dolt]

I am surprised that the tensioners weren't replaced by a dealer when the BB kit was done. The HD BB "kits" usually include pistons, cylinders, SE203 cams and a stronger clutch spring. Any knowledgeable tech would have at least opened the cam chest to inspect the tensioners as it is common knowledge that the early OEM tensioners have a history of early and catastrophic failure; every HD tech knows this. A moot point now for the OP who is trying to figure out where to go from here.

Just a couple of thoughts for Zelda that are JMHO.

1. I would be suspect of any tech that suggested the trans needed anything. The trans has not been affected by the failure of cam chest components and any discussion or trans repair or replacement should be eliminated from the conversation should Zelda continue to work with this tech. Additionally, if the tech will not agree to follow Zelda's instructions on the repair, Zelda should move on and find another tech.

I always encourage others to DIY these projects; this work is just not that challenging; not rocket science. All that is required is the will to get it done, the service manual, basic hand tools and patience. There are a couple of "specialty" tools but there are work arounds for all of them that are inexpensive. There is also a lot of help from forum members that have "been there, done that" to help guide the first time DIYer through the process. This project requires rebuilding the cam chest assuming that the top end is in good condition and based on "The bike doesn't smoke, has normal oil pressure and normal throttle power" , it is likely that it is.

2. If I were in Zelda's situation, based on the information in the OP, I would wait for the results from Blackstone. Blackstone's analysis will include their comments about the overall condition of the motor. I have attached a copy of their analysis of my all bore 107" motor in my '02 FLHT after a bad experience with a set of Axtell cylinders that were out of round and severely scuffed up the pistons to the point that the cylinders had to bored .010" OS to fit new pistons. I was concerned about rings micro welding and debris from the scuffed pistons floating in the oil so I sent a sample to Blackstone. The analysis showed me that my concern was unnecessary. Note the comments section of the report.

It is too late for a compression and leak down test; would have been nice to know the condition of the top end before tearing down the cam chest but as previously stated, the top end may be just fine. After rebuilding the cam chest, a compression and leak dow test will confirm whether or not the top end, including the heads need attention .

3. If Blackstone confirms that metal floating in the oil is not an issue, Zelda or the tech can rebuild the cam chest, i.e., new inner and outer cam bearings, cams, new set of CYCO tensioners (no OEM please), retain the drive sprockets and chains, replace the oil pump with OEM or aftermarket higher capacity Daytona pump which is cheaper than OEM. Of course new o-rings and gaskets. This would be good time to upgrade the cams with a set of S&S 509 cams.

If the bike is carbed, re-jetting should be part of the plan and if EFI a re-tune will be required to optimize performance.

4. If Blackstone analysis comments indicate metal is floating in the oil (I doubt it) all of the above still applies along with the extra steps the Frenchie has outlined in his posts.

BTW, Zelda refers to an "old bike" I just parted ways with my '02 FLHT a few months ago. Having three bikes and not riding as much as I used to, it was time to let one go. Parting ways with that bike was like putting down a dog that had been by my side for fifteen years. I just don't have any interest in the new M8 bikes.

Good luck to Zelda and I look forward to following progress and assisting in any way that I can.

 

[Zelda The Welder]

I am surprised that the tensioners weren't replaced by a dealer when the BB kit was done. The HD BB "kits" usually include pistons, cylinders, SE203 cams and a stronger clutch spring. Any knowledgeable tech would have at least opened the cam chest to inspect the tensioners as it is common knowledge that the early OEM tensioners have a history of early and catastrophic failure; every HD tech knows this. A moot point now for the OP who is trying to figure out where to go from here.

Just a couple of thoughts for Zelda that are JMHO.

1. I would be suspect of any tech that suggested the trans needed anything. The trans has not been affected by the failure of cam chest components and any discussion or trans repair or replacement should be eliminated from the conversation should Zelda continue to work with this tech. Additionally, if the tech will not agree to follow Zelda's instructions on the repair, Zelda should move on and find another tech.

I always encourage others to DIY these projects; this work is just not that challenging; not rocket science. All that is required is the will to get it done, the service manual, basic hand tools and patience. There are a couple of "specialty" tools but there are work arounds for all of them that are inexpensive. There is also a lot of help from forum members that have "been there, done that" to help guide the first time DIYer through the process. This project requires rebuilding the cam chest assuming that the top end is in good condition and based on "The bike doesn't smoke, has normal oil pressure and normal throttle power" , it is likely that it is.

2. If I were in Zelda's situation, based on the information in the OP, I would wait for the results from Blackstone. Blackstone's analysis will include their comments about the overall condition of the motor. I have attached a copy of their analysis of my all bore 107" motor in my '02 FLHT after a bad experience with a set of Axtell cylinders that were out of round and severely scuffed up the pistons to the point that the cylinders had to bored .010" OS to fit new pistons. I was concerned about rings micro welding and debris from the scuffed pistons floating in the oil so I sent a sample to Blackstone. The analysis showed me that my concern was unnecessary. Note the comments section of the report.

It is too late for a compression and leak down test; would have been nice to know the condition of the top end before tearing down the cam chest but as previously stated, the top end may be just fine. After rebuilding the cam chest, a compression and leak dow test will confirm whether or not the top end, including the heads need attention .

3. If Blackstone confirms that metal floating in the oil is not an issue, Zelda or the tech can rebuild the cam chest, i.e., new inner and outer cam bearings, cams, new set of CYCO tensioners (no OEM please), retain the drive sprockets and chains, replace the oil pump with OEM or aftermarket higher capacity Daytona pump which is cheaper than OEM. Of course new o-rings and gaskets. This would be good time to upgrade the cams with a set of S&S 509 cams.

If the bike is carbed, re-jetting should be part of the plan and if EFI a re-tune will be required to optimize performance.

4. If Blackstone analysis comments indicate metal is floating in the oil (I doubt it) all of the above still applies along with the extra steps the Frenchie has outlined in his posts.

BTW, Zelda refers to an "old bike" I just parted ways with my '02 FLHT a few months ago. Having three bikes and not riding as much as I used to, it was time to let one go. Parting ways with that bike was like putting down a dog that had been by my side for fifteen years. I just don't have any interest in the new M8 bikes.

Good luck to Zelda and I look forward to following progress and assisting in any way that I can.

Big Thanks for the encouragement for DYI- that is pretty much what we have decided to do. We brought the bike and it's cam "guts" home last Friday. A couple of my old (in age in length of time know) biker friends came over, one of them had the manual and we made a plan. The Blackstone oil sample kit arrived home before the bike did- and we will get that done next.

You are so right that my old bike is so much my long time companion! While I also no longer ride like I did when we were both young, mostly that has been to respect that we both no longer have the reflexes and the power to ride in all weather and lighting conditions, nor over thousand+ mile days. Never the less, last summer there were many mornings the urge was to just keep going.... I had said so many times "live to ride another day", now we shall see if that will manifest.

 

[dolt]

Big Thanks for the encouragement for DYI- that is pretty much what we have decided to do. We brought the bike and it's cam "guts" home last Friday. A couple of my old (in age in length of time know) biker friends came over, one of them had the manual and we made a plan. The Blackstone oil sample kit arrived home before the bike did- and we will get that done next.

You are so right that my old bike is so much my long time companion! While I also no longer ride like I did when we were both young, mostly that has been to respect that we both no longer have the reflexes and the power to ride in all weather and lighting conditions, nor over thousand+ mile days. Never the less, last summer there were many mornings the urge was to just keep going.... I had said so many times "live to ride another day", now we shall see if that will manifest.

What's the plan? Please keep us posted on the Blackstone results an progress on the repair. I don't know that I can add anything to the plan other than the information previously posted but happy to help out any way I can.