Wanting a little more from a 110 build

Discussion in 'Touring Models' started by SOBRIC, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. SOBRIC

    SOBRIC New Member

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    Hello all. Sorry if I'm messing something up with this. I normally just read.
    I'm looking for any other thoughts/ideas, or comments on my idea, for pulling a little more top end out of this build without loosing to much in the bottom.
    2007 FLHTCU, recently built to 110” with a 48mm TB (Johnson Engine Technology) and 3.9 gm/sec injectors. Road Rage pipe (I love this pipe), high flow intake, Andrews 50 cams, tuned with Direct Link. I believe that the port floors were raised to increase velocity. (It was built from 96", Dresser Duels, TW48 cam, 4.9 gm/sec injectors, Daytona Twin Tech TCFI 4)The dyno graph (attached) shows more than 110 TQ from 2500 to 5000 but dives from there. Most of my riding is 3000 rpm or less. This thing has incredible pull (in my opinion) out to 4000 or 5000 rpm (gear dependent) but I can’t pull more than about 4500 rpm in 5th or 4000 in 6th. Tops out at 109 mph (the stock 96 once hit 112 mph). Worst of all, my sons factory 107 pulled away on a hill and he never knew I was trying!
    I'm thinking about a little more air (Jim's 53mm elliptical), and 4.9 injectors.
    The bike has 100,000+ miles but only 5 to 6000 on this build and I intend to run it at least another 100,000.
    Again, any thoughts, ideas, or comments would be appreciated.
    Oh, by the way, I also did the crash bar oil cooler. Way worth it. This build was HOT well over 230 in just a few minutes riding. I dropped 20 -30 deg. with the crash bar and it takes much longer to heat up. Ride through a rain and the oil temp will drop from 230 to 180 in 5 miles. upload_2017-10-7_9-3-1.png

    upload_2017-10-7_9-3-1.png
     
  2. dolt

    dolt Senior Member

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    Graphs like the ones the OP has posted can indicate several things; mis-matched parts, wet sumping or heads not flowing at higher rpms. I would not have selected the TW50 cam for this build; did not know Andrews offered the 50 for the later 96" motors. With only .510 lift, the cam could very well be holding this otherwise decent combination of parts from its full potential. I don't know why the OP would install a cam with lower lift in a bigger motor; the 48 cam lift is .550".
    Exhaust is OK as well.
    So, check for wet sumping and if that is not the issue then I would suspect head flow as the culprit. We don't know much about the heads or the pistons for that matter. Are the heads the heads from the 96" motor? Who ported the heads? What is the chamber volume? Piston dome volume?What are the valve sizes? Were the heads flowed? What is the CCP?

    If the motor is not wet sumping, the head flow is probably falling off at the higher rpm range. We need to know more about the heads before trying to diagnose the issue. I would be looking for someone to flow test the heads before spending $$ on more T/B, injectors or cams. If the heads aren't flowing, none of those will help. This follows the poor cam selection; also related to flow. If the heads are flowing, the lower lift is limiting the flow. This motor should have a cam set with at least .570" up to .620" lift.

    This build should be making at least 115HP and 120HP would not be an ureasonable expectation; something is definitely holding it back.I would also like to see the AFR line from the attached dyno charts. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  3. flusher

    flusher Active Member

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    Welcome
     
  4. Mongo1958

    Mongo1958 Junior Member

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    Watching this post with a similar goal in mind.
     
  5. dolt

    dolt Senior Member

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    I guess Sobric figured things out.:rolleyes:
     
  6. SOBRIC

    SOBRIC New Member

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    Well, I thought I replied. Don't know were it went/is. I'll try again in a bit.

    So my post, and I did make sure it posted but it's gone, had more information, names.
    Originally the spec was for a 103 with TW54, then I changed my mined to 110 and the builder insisted on the 50.
    I don't know chamber volume, flow, or CCP (what is CCP?) The head castings are the early ones used in HD Twin Cams; Hemi spherical chamber, decked for compression 9.8:1; raised ports, springs set for 165-170 psi on seats, custom valves, 1.870 exhaust, 1.595 intake,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2017
  7. dolt

    dolt Senior Member

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    Well, if I am understanding correctly, something is wrong with those numbers. A 110" motor with stock chamber volume of 85cc and flat top pistons and OEM head gasket will produce static compression about 10.45:1. The only way you get 9.8:1 static would be with larger chambers which would indicate that the heads are 110" heads with 95cc chambers decked to 92cc to make 9.8:1 static CR.

    If the larger chambered heads have been used and true static CR is 9.8:1, then CCP (cold cranking compression) would be about 177psi and corrected compression about 8.7:1 with the TW50 cams; neither of which will support more TQ/HP.

    So, we have to check CCP (standard compression check) which will verify which heads have been used before making a decision on what to do next but I would suggest that a cam change is the most likely step to wake that 110" motor up. Run a compression test and report the results.
     
  8. SOBRIC

    SOBRIC New Member

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    Sorry to take so long, and thanks for the response. I'll try to report that compression by the first of the week.
     
  9. SOBRIC

    SOBRIC New Member

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    CCP 135/135
    Had 12 -15 psi oil for 1500 to 2000 miles after build, getting home. Changed up bypass springs and ran high 40-45. Changed down and got 60 PSI. I decided the piston is sticking. Drained 9 oz of Oil from the sump, let it sit over night (in glass) and had a nasty dark layer in the bottom. This after 3 oil and filter changes. Red Line oil and HD filter.
    I'm almost done putting in the Fuelling HP Cam Plate, Pump, lifters and rods. The Harley pump (5000 - 6000 miles) is scored. .005 run out on rebuilt and welded crank.
    I noticed that as I tighten down the oil pump, the engine gets noticeably harder to turn over. Is that normal? I might open it up and try again to re-align it.
     
  10. dolt

    dolt Senior Member

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    Couple of thoughts.

    1. CCP of 135psi is way low; I suspect that the test was not done properly. Test must be done with fully charge battery, an accurate guage, throttle held wide open. Are the heads equipped with ACRs? If so, that would make sense as compression will run lower with ACRs. If equipped with ACRs, they should be deactivated to get an accurate compression reading. Compression test with the system relay removed ( disabling ACR activation) should read 45-60 psi more than with the system relay installed. So, if your read of 135psi is accurate, plus say 45psi, that would put CCP at 180psi which would be about right for 92cc heads and the TW50 cams. So, your test may be valid if the heads are equipped with ACRs.
    2. 9 ounces of oil from the crank case indicates that the motor is wet sumping; should have been 4 to 6 ounces tops. The dyno chart previously poste also indicates that the motor could be sumping. So, the seal between the oil pump and scavenge port is bad and/or the oil pump has not been properly aligned.
    3. .005" crank run out on a rebuilt and welded crank is unacceptable. Who trued, balanced and welded the crank? They should have sent you a spec sheet showing run out measured on both sides of the crank; at the pinion shaft and the drive shaft. .005" run out is not excessive for chain driven cams; however, if that run out was enough to score the OEM pump what makes you think that the Fueling pump will fare any better? If the wheels have shifted since the crank was rebuilt, it should be replaced.
    4. It does sound like the pressure relief valve is sticking; those oil pressure readings don't make any sense. Pull the piston and buff it up with a Scotch Brite pad or something similar.
    5. The heads sound like 110 heads as you describe them as having a "hemispherical" chamber. As was pointed out in #7 above, that being the case, CCP should between 175-180psi. So it is important to get an accurate compression reading to confirm true compression and to confirm what heads have been installed.

    Bottom line for me would be to start over with the build. The excessive crank run out, the dark matter settling in the collected oil sample and the scoring of the OEM oil pump give me cause for concern. I would suggest that you check out Blackstone's oil testing kit and send a sample in for testing to see if metal is traveling in the oil.