Redfish-Joe
Senior Member
Question...are you tightening both bolts on each side down equally till snug?
intake manifold bolts - running rough
- Thread starter sportster 2001
- Start date
J
Jack Klarich
Guest
Do not use ANY sealer, if your intake does not fit right or heads are warped you need to find that out first. Make sure you clean the threads in the heads, they are blind holes. If there is ANY crud your bolts will bottom out before they are tight
sportster 2001
Banned
as they say "the manual is cheapest part you can buy"
topic was frozen bolts. but i ended up doing it twice not knowing.
the flange should rest on aluminum, back off, tighten to 6-10 ft/lb, when "tightened properly"
on cars if you want to do that without lube (on an intake) you use spray-nine. it'll let the seal move but not cause leaks. but this seal is like an exhaust style seal: i got no comment on "best way"
anyway: surely you need at least something to allow seal to move during install so flange evenly seats onto aluminum WITHOUT pinching seal (with lube it'll move into place / prevent pinching)
i agree. only under pressure of a designed clean mating surface and tightened will sealer hold ANY pressures - if even then (need a proper seal designed to hold vacuum). for example: thin flat mating surface under pressure might not hold unless claming was good and aluminum was perfect flat. generally something in design must be there to aid keeping seal on very high vacuum.
also: some say put sealer around and run starter. that will suck sealer UNDER seal. the seal will then be uneven: which means leaky. and if seal was installed with grease: of course won't hold. without clamping sealer: is sure to get a pinhole and leak
correction. under seal in just spots (will be very uneven due to that)
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sportster 2001
Banned
back to frozen bolts... after fixing the frozen bolt deal (starting topic)
in future i may grind a hex bit to fit intake bolts. at -.005 diff there's no way to buy one. my experience is: if it isn't a perfect fit (.005 off) it'll strip. if you make a "perfect fit" you have to be perfect doing it: or it'll be worse than a quality tool that fits a little loose
in future i may grind a hex bit to fit intake bolts. at -.005 diff there's no way to buy one. my experience is: if it isn't a perfect fit (.005 off) it'll strip. if you make a "perfect fit" you have to be perfect doing it: or it'll be worse than a quality tool that fits a little loose
sportster 2001
Banned
SYMPTOMS: when intake leaking badly i'd have choke full out and any gas past idle would bog out. even with oil near 200 deg if i put choke in, engine died or bogged out very easily between.
here's my experience with a harder than usual intake problem after i've "fixed" it (i also had the "frozen instake bolts", see other article)
FIXES:
1) after a wrong try i read: make sure new flang seats all the way down both sides (see articles ^^). re-installed.
2) on intake seals: i used grease 1st try, no grease (tire lube / spray nine) 2nd try, and rtv 3rd try, let dry overnight (note binds to seal material, and because it must assemble quick and right: requires experience w/install remove of rtv on aluminum surfaces). the rtv on 2 intake side seals did not leak but carburetor seal did (dry on all 3, as most manual suggests). (i sprayed water like rain on rtv to check). HOWEVER - i won't say dry, grease or rtv are "better". (no grease? some auto intake seals specify not to use)
3) be PATIENT. allow at least 3 warm up / cool down idle cycles (do NOT step on throttle while rich at all you'll backfire blow out seals carbonize piston and pipes). unlike me: on cars it works first time i expected: but these are exaust style seals on a motorcycle intake so ? ...
PROBLEM: when i first ran all 3 ^^ still ran rough. each appeared better after heating up, cooling down. grease or dry leaked when checked with carb cleaner (check rtv with water do not put chemicals on it)
after heat up cool (rtv) i decided to shim carburetor plate for optimal sitting (note: with rtv body position is final). i'd marked it so it was already good. but re-seating it more carfully made it run better: best of 3 attempts but still rough.
after cool down (that's two) i needed needed gas, so i "idle circuit"'ed to get gas
i noticed after getting gas i had throttle a more past middle than before, so kept running. (bad gas? no. i'd drained gas earlier i had siting too long problem: always run every vehicle 1xmo. if you don't want headaches!!)
so i got home, did oil change (running rich makes oil black), went out a little scenery and errand. ran almost nice, bogged in some situations unless enricher full out. got back. let bike cool. noticed i had a return to do. knew maybe the seal was ? positioning or heating itself onto the pipes (remember after 1st warm/cold cycle seals are already stickign to parts but if removed have no damage)
on my way back, after 3rd warmup / cool down, my choke (enricher) was all the way in and idled fine.
-------------------------
THIRD TIME IS A CHARM
be patient seating seals make sure all are not forced, seated, and straight.
be patient give 3 or 4 full warm up / cool down without any throttle after seal install. (especially not causing backfire into carb) (not on main road)
if you had a real problem (more than usual for sportster) it may be 3 trips until you get a firm middle throttle and 4th until you can run with enricher all the way in
it may just be that heating and cooling seal lets it fill voids and or allows it to stick to parts that "just one heat up" or even two, won't do.
------------------
NOTES
experience: rtv was best first start (but see warn ^^). dry seemed better than grease first start. coming off: dry did stick to parts hard to get off. grease was tacky but still hard coming off: except on inner still was still liquid when removed (one heat up cycle only, i expect it'd get tacky eventually)
between tire lube (spray nine), grease, rtv i won't choose a favorite. rtv seems it might be better on a "leaks after fresh seals+flange install" intake, but long term it's way harder to redo if it fails (and requires speed and experience).
at one time i had the bike hot (on 2nd heatup cycle) and beleived it was worse.
now i don't think so: it was probably getting better and because i was impatient and not looking for that, was trying to use middle throttle, and etc
on first two it was probably that i'd overlooked it might get slowly better not worse
that surprised me i'd think "stop dreaming it's too good to be true". i'd just start of thinking: well it'll be right when i learn how.
patience with seals
correction: i'd think: "stop dreaming it's too good to be true, no time for that,: remove it, try next plan or order new stuff, should work 1st time perfect"
patience with these seals might pay off
i forgot. see "frozen intake bolts" about rtv. for rtv to seal anything (oil, air, at all) it must be under clamping force or won't work. don't try to "suck it in" by running starter or just apply over. it will suck in unevenly and leave ridges: guaranteed leaks. you need to know kinds of seals that use rtv and how they work - work experience really
my advice to the shady tree mechanic
if you used carb cleaner to find you have an air intake leak, bring this to a harley dealer and tell service writer you want only a master mechanic work on it !!
at least you saved yourself the diag. labor fee.
repeat: if you ever have any work ever done by dealer: i suggest let them do this one - it requires experience. there's allot of damage that can be done by any mistakes on this "apparently simple" work in the most critical area of the bike (performance wise and damage wise).
i've rebuilt mower and car engines, on auto done every job there is period, and a little motorcylce work too. this kinda job is the one i was taught by a master to most be careful around, got the most warnings on: toolign aroudn near the intake head.
if you can't afford the frustration of patience "try it again / get another seal" or cost risk (ie, goof up cylinder head? $4000 to have dealer do, towed ,(it's totaled))
-----------------------------
at the modest est. of 1/hr or even 2/hr+ of shop labor, the part cost is low, this is the one repair job you can first afford - especially if you don't know if or who did the job last (and what they did!)
another patience tip: if you just installed seals with grease and it's running rough: don't spreay carb cleaner on it yet you'll wash grease off one side not other - then you have imbalance. wait until a few warm up / cool down cycles. or never: if you know it leaks and give up after installing: carb cleaner won't help if your about to remove it to try again either.
here's my experience with a harder than usual intake problem after i've "fixed" it (i also had the "frozen instake bolts", see other article)
FIXES:
1) after a wrong try i read: make sure new flang seats all the way down both sides (see articles ^^). re-installed.
2) on intake seals: i used grease 1st try, no grease (tire lube / spray nine) 2nd try, and rtv 3rd try, let dry overnight (note binds to seal material, and because it must assemble quick and right: requires experience w/install remove of rtv on aluminum surfaces). the rtv on 2 intake side seals did not leak but carburetor seal did (dry on all 3, as most manual suggests). (i sprayed water like rain on rtv to check). HOWEVER - i won't say dry, grease or rtv are "better". (no grease? some auto intake seals specify not to use)
3) be PATIENT. allow at least 3 warm up / cool down idle cycles (do NOT step on throttle while rich at all you'll backfire blow out seals carbonize piston and pipes). unlike me: on cars it works first time i expected: but these are exaust style seals on a motorcycle intake so ? ...
PROBLEM: when i first ran all 3 ^^ still ran rough. each appeared better after heating up, cooling down. grease or dry leaked when checked with carb cleaner (check rtv with water do not put chemicals on it)
after heat up cool (rtv) i decided to shim carburetor plate for optimal sitting (note: with rtv body position is final). i'd marked it so it was already good. but re-seating it more carfully made it run better: best of 3 attempts but still rough.
after cool down (that's two) i needed needed gas, so i "idle circuit"'ed to get gas
i noticed after getting gas i had throttle a more past middle than before, so kept running. (bad gas? no. i'd drained gas earlier i had siting too long problem: always run every vehicle 1xmo. if you don't want headaches!!)
so i got home, did oil change (running rich makes oil black), went out a little scenery and errand. ran almost nice, bogged in some situations unless enricher full out. got back. let bike cool. noticed i had a return to do. knew maybe the seal was ? positioning or heating itself onto the pipes (remember after 1st warm/cold cycle seals are already stickign to parts but if removed have no damage)
on my way back, after 3rd warmup / cool down, my choke (enricher) was all the way in and idled fine.
-------------------------
THIRD TIME IS A CHARM
be patient seating seals make sure all are not forced, seated, and straight.
be patient give 3 or 4 full warm up / cool down without any throttle after seal install. (especially not causing backfire into carb) (not on main road)
if you had a real problem (more than usual for sportster) it may be 3 trips until you get a firm middle throttle and 4th until you can run with enricher all the way in
it may just be that heating and cooling seal lets it fill voids and or allows it to stick to parts that "just one heat up" or even two, won't do.
------------------
NOTES
experience: rtv was best first start (but see warn ^^). dry seemed better than grease first start. coming off: dry did stick to parts hard to get off. grease was tacky but still hard coming off: except on inner still was still liquid when removed (one heat up cycle only, i expect it'd get tacky eventually)
between tire lube (spray nine), grease, rtv i won't choose a favorite. rtv seems it might be better on a "leaks after fresh seals+flange install" intake, but long term it's way harder to redo if it fails (and requires speed and experience).
at one time i had the bike hot (on 2nd heatup cycle) and beleived it was worse.
now i don't think so: it was probably getting better and because i was impatient and not looking for that, was trying to use middle throttle, and etc
on first two it was probably that i'd overlooked it might get slowly better not worse
that surprised me i'd think "stop dreaming it's too good to be true". i'd just start of thinking: well it'll be right when i learn how.
patience with seals
correction: i'd think: "stop dreaming it's too good to be true, no time for that,: remove it, try next plan or order new stuff, should work 1st time perfect"
patience with these seals might pay off
i forgot. see "frozen intake bolts" about rtv. for rtv to seal anything (oil, air, at all) it must be under clamping force or won't work. don't try to "suck it in" by running starter or just apply over. it will suck in unevenly and leave ridges: guaranteed leaks. you need to know kinds of seals that use rtv and how they work - work experience really
my advice to the shady tree mechanic
if you used carb cleaner to find you have an air intake leak, bring this to a harley dealer and tell service writer you want only a master mechanic work on it !!
at least you saved yourself the diag. labor fee.
repeat: if you ever have any work ever done by dealer: i suggest let them do this one - it requires experience. there's allot of damage that can be done by any mistakes on this "apparently simple" work in the most critical area of the bike (performance wise and damage wise).
i've rebuilt mower and car engines, on auto done every job there is period, and a little motorcylce work too. this kinda job is the one i was taught by a master to most be careful around, got the most warnings on: toolign aroudn near the intake head.
if you can't afford the frustration of patience "try it again / get another seal" or cost risk (ie, goof up cylinder head? $4000 to have dealer do, towed ,(it's totaled))
-----------------------------
at the modest est. of 1/hr or even 2/hr+ of shop labor, the part cost is low, this is the one repair job you can first afford - especially if you don't know if or who did the job last (and what they did!)
another patience tip: if you just installed seals with grease and it's running rough: don't spreay carb cleaner on it yet you'll wash grease off one side not other - then you have imbalance. wait until a few warm up / cool down cycles. or never: if you know it leaks and give up after installing: carb cleaner won't help if your about to remove it to try again either.
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