Uh-oh; This Looks Like Trouble!

[Rod Stewart]

I decided to do an oil and filter and primary oil change before loading the bike in the trailer to head to Arizona for the winter. When I drained the catch pan afterwards I noticed literally hundreds and hundreds of tiny shiny copper coloured particles at the bottom of the pan. Ouch! Not what I wanted to see.
Any ideas where these might be coming from?
The bike is an '04 Cassic with 95 inch engine, SE203 cams, and has been running great. The oil had just under 5K on it (Syn3) and the bike has about 55K miles on it. The cam chain tensioners have been changed once about 20K miles ago.
Is it time to trade her in?
Rod

 

[dolt]

Sources for copper, probably brass which is a combination of copper and aluminum IIRC, is piston pin bushings, rocker bushings, valve guides and the bronze bearing in the cam plate, pretty common for wear. Most everything else is steel or aluminum. If the motor is running OK without any noise, check crank runout and ride it through the Arizona winter but keep an eye on the oil, probably cut open the filter next oil change.

Trade or keep and repair is your call but a repair of some sort is in your future and, depending on what part needs replacing, you cold be re-building from the bottom up; it's a crap shoot. If you trade, you could get one that someone in your situation, or worse, traded.

 

[tourbox]

Dolt has you pretty much covered on the parts side. I would be leaning towards the pinion shaft run out as Dolt stated. Easy to check. When you pull the cam support plate off you'll be able to the wear, if there, where the pinion shaft rides.
tourbox

 

[Rod Stewart]

OK thanks for the thoughts Dolt and tourbox. If I did trade it in, it would be likely on a brand new HOG, as I sure like some of the new features I see. Or maybe a Boss Hoss that I have had a hankering for, for a while now! Hhhmmmm.
Seriously though, I never considered the cam plate bushing. That would be a pretty easy check to make. And if it needs replacement its probably better to do it sooner rather than later. Good time for quick fit pushrods too.
I still have the oil filter that just came off it, with 5K miles of use, so maybe I will cut that open and see what kind of barnacles I find!
Thanks guys,
Rod

 

[tourbox]

Just remember that if the pinion shaft bushing does have a lot of wear that your crank may have to much run out. In '04 they allowed up to .003". When they went to the 96 c.i. they increased it to .012".
I have a new 2018 FLHTCU and really like it. Plenty of power. I had the big screen radio put in so I could have the GPS. Never had that on any vehicle and I like it. I just went to Sturgis then Tenn. and back home. 5,300+ mi. trip. Trying to put a few pics together for a thread.
tourbox

 

[Rod Stewart]

OK a bit of an update.
Today I had some time so I cut open the oil filter and extracted the entire pleated section.
After I laid it out and flattened it I took a close look and found............ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
The pleats are as clean as a whistle. Cleanest oil filter I have ever dissected, and there have been quite a few.
So the good news is that the supply side of the oil system should be nice and clean, including pump, cooler, oil galleries, bearings, bushings, spray nozzles etc. The other good news is that the oil sump tank seems to be doing a good job of separating the contaminants because the particles seem to all settle out before being picked up in the oil supply line to the pump suction.
The bad news is I still don't really know where they are coming from, so the search goes on. I am leaning towards pulling the cam case cover at some point and pulling the cams so as to check the crank pinion runout and condition of the bushing in the outer cam plate. I guess I cant rule out the wrist pin bushings or rocker arm bushings, since any flakes from either of them would find their way into the cam chest and be picked up by the scavenge pump heading back to the tank.
Anyone any thoughts or suggestions please?
Thanks,
Rod

BTW the new Ultra sounds really nice tourbox. Looking forward to seeing a few pix.
Rod

 

[btsom]

Your original post confuses me. You changed both engine oil AND primary lube. Did you drain them BOTH into the same pan, and if so, did you empty the pan between jobs or was oil from both locations in the pan at the same time? Everyone, including you seems to be assuming what your are seeing is from the engine, and it may well be. I can't think of any brass parts in the primary, but it does have the stater with copper windings.

 

[Rod Stewart]

Btsom, you make an interesting point, that I had not considered before.
Yes I did drain both primary and oilpan into the same catch pan, (but not the tranny oil.)
I had not considered that the particles may have come from the primary, but I am thinking its not likely. I recall that the primary fluid was somewhat cloudy, but not dark when draining. And I think I would have noticed shiny stuff in It, but maybe not. No real way to know until next time,when I will be more vigilant.
Rod