Cams?

[SoTexBikerTrash]

Ok, I have a 2002 Ultra Classic Screaming Eagle. I appear to have a bad lifter in it, so, I've been trying to price out my parts. What I'm unsure of, is, how to determine what cams I have so that I can price them as well. Any help would be truly appreciated.

 

[dolt]

Ok, I have a 2002 Ultra Classic Screaming Eagle. I appear to have a bad lifter in it, so, I've been trying to price out my parts. What I'm unsure of, is, how to determine what cams I have so that I can price them as well. Any help would be truly appreciated.

First, please clarify. There was no FLHTCU CVO in 2002 so exactly what is a 2002 Ultra Classic Screaming Eagle? It would also help if you listed any modifications that have been made to the bike, i.e., Stage I upgrade to air filter and exhaust? Fuel mangement? etc.

Easy answer to your questions though, replace lifters with S&S Standards and if the motor is a TC88, replace cams with a set of S&S 509s or Andrews TW21. In a touring model, the 509s would be the best IMHO. I will assume you have paid the Harley "tax" and have done the Stage I upgrade to the air filter and exhaust? If not, the cam upgrade would greatly benefit from both.

If fuel management has not been addressed, consider the Power Vision and a proper dyno tune when the upgrades are complete. You and your motor will be glad you did.

 

[SoTexBikerTrash]

First, please clarify. There was no FLHTCU CVO in 2002 so exactly what is a 2002 Ultra Classic Screaming Eagle? It would also help if you listed any modifications that have been made to the bike, i.e., Stage I upgrade to air filter and exhaust? Fuel mangement? etc.

Easy answer to your questions though, replace lifters with S&S Standards and if the motor is a TC88, replace cams with a set of S&S 509s or Andrews TW21. In a touring model, the 509s would be the best IMHO. I will assume you have paid the Harley "tax" and have done the Stage I upgrade to the air filter and exhaust? If not, the cam upgrade would greatly benefit from both.

If fuel management has not been addressed, consider the Power Vision and a proper dyno tune when the upgrades are complete. You and your motor will be glad you did.

Yeah, after talking to the dealer yesterday, I discovered this was not from the factory (excuse my ignorance). I do know that it does have the Screaming Eagle jugs, breather, cam plate, and tuner. I purchased the bike used from the dealer, so, not really sure what else has been done to it by the prior owner. Gonna pull the cams to check for flat spoets, and go from there

 

[dolt]

Yeah, after talking to the dealer yesterday, I discovered this was not from the factory (excuse my ignorance). I do know that it does have the Screaming Eagle jugs, breather, cam plate, and tuner. I purchased the bike used from the dealer, so, not really sure what else has been done to it by the prior owner. Gonna pull the cams to check for flat spoets, and go from there

I think you mean SE heads; cylinders are not labeled but the heads are. Did the dealer run the VIN to find this information? If the work was done by a dealer, the details should show up.

Consider checking compression before you start a tear down; a compression test should reveal something. All SE cams and aftermarket cams have the cam ID stamped into the face ot the outer cam journal so you will be able to determine what cams have been installed when you open the cam chest. I doubt you will find "flat spots" on the cams since they run on roller lifters. If a roller is damaged, it could scuff up a cam lobe past the hardened surface which would require replacement. Youwill also be able to determine what cam plate was used; if SE it will be black or orange. The SE "tuner", unless the SERT, is just a re-flash of the ECM which adds a bit of fuel across the rpm range and increases the rev limit. If you don't have any hardware/software, you really don't have a fuel management system.

What makes you think you have bad lifter? Typical lifter issues are roller damage/failure or leakdown and failure to pump up resulting in valve train noise.

Check compression (battery fully charged, both plugs out, throttle held wide open, accurate guage) and post the results. Post some pictures of the cam chest. Lot's of help here for the asking.

 

[SoTexBikerTrash]

[QUOTE="SoTexBikerTrash]Yeah, after talking to the dealer yesterday, I discovered this was not from the factory (excuse my ignorance). I do know that it does have the Screaming Eagle jugs, breather, cam plate, and tuner. I purchased the bike used from the dealer, so, not really sure what else has been done to it by the prior owner. Gonna pull the cams to check for flat spoets, and go from there

I think you mean SE heads; cylinders are not labeled but the heads are. Did the dealer run the VIN to find this information? If the work was done by a dealer, the details should show up.

Consider checking compression before you start a tear down; a compression test should reveal something. All SE cams and aftermarket cams have the cam ID stamped into the face ot the outer cam journal so you will be able to determine what cams have been installed when you open the cam chest. I doubt you will find "flat spots" on the cams since they run on roller lifters. If a roller is damaged, it could scuff up a cam lobe past the hardened surface which would require replacement. Youwill also be able to determine what cam plate was used; if SE it will be black or orange. The SE "tuner", unless the SERT, is just a re-flash of the ECM which adds a bit of fuel across the rpm range and increases the rev limit. If you don't have any hardware/software, you really don't have a fuel management system.

What makes you think you have bad lifter? Typical lifter issues are roller damage/failure or leakdown and failure to pump up resulting in valve train noise.

Check compression (battery fully charged, both plugs out, throttle held wide open, accurate guage) and post the results. Post some pictures of the cam chest. Lot's of help here for the asking.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, the dealer ran the VIN# for me. When I bought the bike they gave me the tuner and the Screaming Eagle software for tuning. The cam plate is orange, and I already have the hydraulic cam chain tensioner, I opened that up Saturday to inspect it. Lol, and yes, the heads are marked, not the cylinders.

Basically, what's happening is, after it runs for a little bit, she starts to rattle to beat (EDIT). If I let her sit for a little while (hour or 2), start her back up, and she doesn't rattle anymore. I can ride it for several days (locally of course), and she's fine, but, next thing I know she'll start it up again, sometimes after running for about 5 minutes. I've noticed the sound of the engine changes when this happens, as well, as if a cylinder is loading up. I have kept an eye on the oil gauge when this happens, and noticed that my oil pressure pretty well holds where it should, although, I don't really trust electronic gauges. I had just done an oil change about a week before the first time that this happened. I do use the Screaming Eagle 20\50 when I change it. Quite frankly, everyone I've talked to has told me it sounded like a bad lifter. I have found a guy locally that has done work for friends. Told me he'd charge $30 to diagnose it. Probably going to let him do the work, this is the only transportation I have currently, and he would actually have more time to work on it than what I have.

 

[dolt]

It is very difficult to diagnose ticks and rarttles without hearing the noise. Perhaps you could make a short video and post it?

Symptoms you describe would not point me to a lifter. Typically a lifter that leaks down will rattle on cold start up and may or may not settle down when up to operating temp and the symptoms don't exhibit intermittently; they are constant. The other common ailment with lifters is the roller going bad, either the pin holding the roller fails or the hardened surface of the roller flakes off but, again, once this happens, the symptoms don't exhibit intermittently. Of course, the lifters should certainly be inspected.

How to the tensioners look? Have they worn enough to be making contact with the metal holder? I would not rule out and inner cam or outer cam bearing getting ready to fail or even something in the primary. These noises are sometimes very difficult to locate.

I am a strong believer in looking back at the last thing done before an issue starts to exhibit but I don't believe an oil change is the cause of the issue. While I would not pay the Harley tax for the SE 20/50 oil, it is an excellent motor lubricant. I see the oil change related to the rattle as a coincidence but certainly could be missing something.

A compression and leak down test may not reveal anything to help solve the issue but will provide a diagnosis of the condition of the top end. If you plan to change the tensioners, it would be wise to replace the inner cam bearings with a set of full compliment bearings like the Torrington/Timken B148s.

I think it would be wise to address the issue sooner rather than later; could be you are sitting on a time bomb but you won't know until you, or your local guy, takes a closer look. Good luck.

 

[SoTexBikerTrash]

It is very difficult to diagnose ticks and rarttles without hearing the noise. Perhaps you could make a short video and post it?

Symptoms you describe would not point me to a lifter. Typically a lifter that leaks down will rattle on cold start up and may or may not settle down when up to operating temp and the symptoms don't exhibit intermittently; they are constant. The other common ailment with lifters is the roller going bad, either the pin holding the roller fails or the hardened surface of the roller flakes off but, again, once this happens, the symptoms don't exhibit intermittently. Of course, the lifters should certainly be inspected.

How to the tensioners look? Have they worn enough to be making contact with the metal holder? I would not rule out and inner cam or outer cam bearing getting ready to fail or even something in the primary. These noises are sometimes very difficult to locate.

I am a strong believer in looking back at the last thing done before an issue starts to exhibit but I don't believe an oil change is the cause of the issue. While I would not pay the Harley tax for the SE 20/50 oil, it is an excellent motor lubricant. I see the oil change related to the rattle as a coincidence but certainly could be missing something.

A compression and leak down test may not reveal anything to help solve the issue but will provide a diagnosis of the condition of the top end. If you plan to change the tensioners, it would be wise to replace the inner cam bearings with a set of full compliment bearings like the Torrington/Timken B148s.

I think it would be wise to address the issue sooner rather than later; could be you are sitting on a time bomb but you won't know until you, or your local guy, takes a closer look. Good luck.

The tensioners look great. I didn't really notice any wear to speak of on them. I've left the bike parked since the last time it made the noise to prevent doing any severe damage. Fortunately, I'm within walking distance to work. I'll try to get a video to post, but, the last time I started her, she ran smooth as can be, although, I only started her long enough to move her a short distance. I do appreciate your time with this. Truthfully, she's going to the mechanic on Saturday, seeing as how I have limited time to work on her.