2017 FXSB starting issues

[Andrew2017fxsb]

Hey all,

I'm new here, the bike is new to me, I'm am electrician by trade so I think I'm ok with a multimeter.

Anyhow, I'll explain to you my experiences with this bike. The guy I bought it off didn't keep it on a charger, so I figured the battery was cactus but he said it was good.

I rode it for a handful of less than ten minute rides to get the roadworthy organised, presumably the mechanic did to. Then I got it back and between starting it just for the hell of it and a half dozen very short (less than 2km) trips it conked out after filling up fuel at the servo.

I thought that was probably fair enough. I jump started it with my jump pack, went around the block a few times and left it idling for a good 5 odd minutes before putting it away.

Maybe a week or two later I took it out for a ride to my mum's for mother's Day (Sunday just passed). Stopped on the way there twice for fuel, though the trip back was continuous and takes a bit over an hour so I think it should have had a decent charge that day.

Come today I took it for a quick spin ten minutes down the road to pick up some dinner, tried to start her to leave and no joy.. had to get the Mrs to bring the jump pack out. Thought that was odd and that the battery must be buggered after all, hoping the alternator is 100% though 99% confident that it is.

Rode the ten odd minutes home, popped the seat straight off still running. It was sitting at 14v at idle (used an analogue meter), that was a relief. Turned it off, put the battery tester on it and it put out 449 amps... which I didn't expect.

So now I've got it on charge over night, then I'll let it settle for a day or two and then I'll put the battery tester on it again and see what it has to say, though in the meantime I'm curious as to what feedback you guys might have for me? How many amps does the starter suck? How many restarts would you expect out of a good battery?

If the battery settles and still puts out over 400amps I'll be stumped really. I think new batteries for my bike are from about 310cca. It's a new bike, the way I see it it's gotta be a dud battery, though maybe it just doesn't like restarting hot? It has a stage one in it, maybe it needs a ton of amps, both times it's died it's been hot and left off only for a minute or two so I'm thinking maybe that's got something to do with it.

(EDIT) lockdown, need to go for longer rides

What do you guys think?

 

[Jeff Klarich]

Take a look here, i'm guessing the battery is toast.

Testing the charging system.


Step 1. First things first, load test the battery. Most places like Auto Zone will do it for free. Even if it measures over 12.5 vdc it can still be bad under a load. Battery is typically rated at 19 amp hours and 270 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA).

Start the engine and measure DC Volts across the battery terminals, the regulator should be putting out 14.3 - 14.7 vdc at 3600 rpm and 75 degrees F.


Step 2. To check the regulator unplug it from the stator. Take a test light and clip it to the negative terminal of the battery and then touch first one pin and then the other on the plug that goes to the regulator. If you get even the slightest amount of light from the test light the regulator is toast.

To do this with a meter which is more accurate: black lead to battery ground, red lead to each pin on the plug, start with the voltage scale higher than 12vdc and move voltage scale down in steps for each pin. Any voltage is a bad regulator.
You may get battery voltage on all three pins on the newer 3 phase regulators.
The no voltage is for older type regulators with diode indicating the diode is bad and the regulator needs replacing.


Step 3. On the other part of the disconnected regulator plug. Set the multimeter for Ohms x1 scale and measure for resistance across the pins of the stator. You should read something around 0.1 to 0.2 ohms for the TC88 32 amp system.


Step 4. Then check for continuity between each pin on the plug and frame/engine ground. The meter needle should not move (infinite resistance)(digitals will show infinite resistance) if the meter needle does move (indicating continuity)(digitals will show some resistance), recheck very carefully. If the meter still shows continuity to ground the stator is shorted (bad).


Step 5. Set the meter to read A/C volts higher than 30 volts (the scale setting for voltage should always be higher than the highest voltage you expect or you may fry the meter). Start the bike, and measure from one pin to the other on the plug (DO NOT cross the multimeter probes! - touch them to each other). You should read roughly 16-20 vac per 1,000 rpm.


Step 6. If the battery was good under load test, if the stator is NOT shorted to ground, and the stator is putting out A/C voltage, then the regulator is bad (most likely even if if passed step 2).


Generally the following is true:
Check your owners/service manual for the system amp output for your bike.
22 amp system produces about 19-26 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.2 to 0.4 ohms.
32 amp system produces about 16-20 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.1 to 0.2 ohms.
45 amp system produces about 19-26 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.1 to 0.2 ohms.

(Disclaimer)I may not always be right but at least I tried. 05 U

 

[dolt]

Replace the battery and consider a lithium ion replacement. A bit pricey but worth it IMHO; have them in both my bikes and will not go back to lead acid, ever.

 

[Andrew2017fxsb]

Replace the battery and consider a lithium ion replacement. A bit pricey but worth it IMHO; have them in both my bikes and will not go back to lead acid, ever.

Yeah I was thinking that, but I bet a lion battery is probably $600+ over here in that size.. though they do have less memory, so maybe

Just about to chuck the battery tester on and see what it puts it today

What has been so good about it that you'll never go back? How long have you had it?

Take a look here, i'm guessing the battery is toast.

Testing the charging system.


Step 1. First things first, load test the battery. Most places like Auto Zone will do it for free. Even if it measures over 12.5 vdc it can still be bad under a load. Battery is typically rated at 19 amp hours and 270 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA).

Start the engine and measure DC Volts across the battery terminals, the regulator should be putting out 14.3 - 14.7 vdc at 3600 rpm and 75 degrees F.


Step 2. To check the regulator unplug it from the stator. Take a test light and clip it to the negative terminal of the battery and then touch first one pin and then the other on the plug that goes to the regulator. If you get even the slightest amount of light from the test light the regulator is toast.

To do this with a meter which is more accurate: black lead to battery ground, red lead to each pin on the plug, start with the voltage scale higher than 12vdc and move voltage scale down in steps for each pin. Any voltage is a bad regulator.
You may get battery voltage on all three pins on the newer 3 phase regulators.
The no voltage is for older type regulators with diode indicating the diode is bad and the regulator needs replacing.


Step 3. On the other part of the disconnected regulator plug. Set the multimeter for Ohms x1 scale and measure for resistance across the pins of the stator. You should read something around 0.1 to 0.2 ohms for the TC88 32 amp system.


Step 4. Then check for continuity between each pin on the plug and frame/engine ground. The meter needle should not move (infinite resistance)(digitals will show infinite resistance) if the meter needle does move (indicating continuity)(digitals will show some resistance), recheck very carefully. If the meter still shows continuity to ground the stator is shorted (bad).


Step 5. Set the meter to read A/C volts higher than 30 volts (the scale setting for voltage should always be higher than the highest voltage you expect or you may fry the meter). Start the bike, and measure from one pin to the other on the plug (DO NOT cross the multimeter probes! - touch them to each other). You should read roughly 16-20 vac per 1,000 rpm.


Step 6. If the battery was good under load test, if the stator is NOT shorted to ground, and the stator is putting out A/C voltage, then the regulator is bad (most likely even if if passed step 2).


Generally the following is true:
Check your owners/service manual for the system amp output for your bike.
22 amp system produces about 19-26 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.2 to 0.4 ohms.
32 amp system produces about 16-20 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.1 to 0.2 ohms.
45 amp system produces about 19-26 vac per 1,000 rpm, stator resistance is about 0.1 to 0.2 ohms.

(Disclaimer)I may not always be right but at least I tried. 05 U

Mate, you are a legend. Great simplified list that I'll be sure to go through unless I get my battery to fail a torture test tonight.

 

[Jeff Klarich]

Yeah I was thinking that, but I bet a lion battery is probably $600+ over here in that size.. though they do have less memory, so maybe

Just about to chuck the battery tester on and see what it puts it today

What has been so good about it that you'll never go back? How long have you had it?


Mate, you are a legend. Great simplified list that I'll be sure to go through unless I get my battery to fail a torture test tonight.

Good deal, keep us updated.

 

[dolt]

Yeah I was thinking that, but I bet a lion battery is probably $600+ over here in that size.. though they do have less memory, so maybe. Just about to chuck the battery tester on and see what it puts it today. What has been so good about it that you'll never go back? How long have you had it?

Beware of batteries that test good, even under a load test. They can show good but when put back and under the load of the system, show weakness.

Li battery will weigh 3-4 pounds, so a nice reduction in unsprung weight in a heavy motorcycle and I am always looking for ways to make the bike lighter. An Li battery does not need to be on a tender continuously. The Li batteries I have spin my high compression motors with ease. Like I said, the downside is the upcharge and whether an Li battery is worth the additional cost is a personal choice.

Edited to fix quote...

 

[Jeff Klarich]

dolt: Beware of batteries that test good, even under a load test. They can show good but when put back and under the load of the system, show weakness.

That's the whole reason for a load test, to check for a weak battery under load. A battery is under more stress while starting then it is going down the road running head and tail lights.
Never seen a battery pass a proper load test and then go bad after it's back in the bike unless something else was the cause ie not charging properly.

 

[Andrew2017fxsb]

dolt: Beware of batteries that test good, even under a load test. They can show good but when put back and under the load of the system, show weakness.

That's the whole reason for a load test, to check for a weak battery under load. A battery is under more stress while starting then it is going down the road running head and tail lights.
Never seen a battery pass a proper load test and then go bad after it's back in the bike unless something else was the cause ie not charging properly.

Yeah that's what's confused me somewhat, at this stage I feel like it's probably my fault. The battery put out 350 odd amps last night every time, cold or hot.

I'll test it every day for a week, maybe start it for just a few minutes and keep going until it finally doesn't start again

At the moment I feel like the issue is me. I feel like I've managed to drain the battery somehow by not knowing how things work properly with the proxy key / fob. Probably left it in a state with a higher draw accidentally. I know I was fiddling with it to get the codes out of it on Sunday night so I reckon after that I left it with the dash and whatnot on or something

Seems the most likely, unless it's temperature / compression related or a loose or otherwise dodgy connection. I think the bikes to New and tidy for any of that

I think it's me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[QUOTE="Andrew2017fxsb]Yeah I was thinking that, but I bet a lion battery is probably $600+ over here in that size.. though they do have less memory, so maybe. Just about to chuck the battery tester on and see what it puts it today. What has been so good about it that you'll never go back? How long have you had it?

Beware of batteries that test good, even under a load test. They can show good but when put back and under the load of the system, show weakness.

Li battery will weigh 3-4 pounds, so a nice reduction in unsprung weight in a heavy motorcycle and I am always looking for ways to make the bike lighter. An Li battery does not need to be on a tender continuously. The Li batteries I have spin my high compression motors with ease. Like I said, the downside is the upcharge and whether an Li battery is worth the additional cost is a personal choice.

I'll do a bit of research and think on it. I have another bike that's battery is definitely cactus, though I just took that one off the road and decided to hang it on the wall

Edited to fix quote....

Might test a lion battery in that one if I'm feeling rich

 

[Jeff Klarich]

Just make sure your doing the load test on a fully charged battery.

In my opinion after a couple load tests with minimal drop on the meter your good to go.

Having said that I just reread your post and I see your scoot is a 2017, it may be time for a new battery. Give the Load test a whirl and see what you think.

 

[Andrew2017fxsb]

Just make sure your doing the load test on a fully charged battery.

In my opinion after a couple load tests with minimal drop on the meter your good to go.

Having said that I just reread your post and I see your scoot is a 2017, it may be time for a new battery. Give the Load test a whirl and see what you think.

I've lost patience for testing it, I just carry a screwdriver and a jump pack for now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If it makes it through the winter I'll figure it's all good. I think I managed to leave the computer running after pulling those codes out of it that night..

If it gives me even a tiny bit more grief I'm going to cave and buy a cheap lithium ion battery off eBay and give that a whirl. I feel like it's probably going to be fine though.